"Nobody gets paid much for writing anymore, especially now that it’s considered a woman’s field, in fact that’s how you know it’s a woman’s field" Someone finally said it!
While watching this debate unfold, I've noticed the ever-narrowing of the categories in which this problem supposedly exists; every time someone points to a gay man, a man of color, or a male fantasy writer who's been successful, there's an insistence that that man just doesn't "count" towards the problem. Possibly it's more of an issue in lit fic because that genre lends itself to exploring emotional experiences, which, we're told, men are just not as good at as women? Or maybe it's just that a generation of men has been told that writing about feelings is girly, and they held enough disdain for women to listen to what they were told.
I can't help but think that if all these thinkpiece writers were really serious about getting more straight white men to publish literary fiction, they'd try to get more men working in publishing. But that would mean that those men would have to work in a field composed of primarily women. Women would likely be their superiors and career mentors, people they'd have to respect, listen to, and collaborate with. They'd also be paid the going rate (well, probably more), which, though slightly better than it used to be, is as dismal as you'd expect for a woman-dominated field. But, surprise, many men don't seem willing to do those things. And, surprise, they're finding a way to blame women for it.
Yep and the very top roles in publishing are still dominated by men for the most part! Women do the majority of the grunt work and hold middle management roles, but far fewer of the chief positions.
I can't blame the men for not flocking to traditional publishing-- they want to live, and impoverishing themselves on the off chance they'll get to rule the remains of the henhouse is a poor bet, especially if they don't have preexisting literary connections. It's not like publishing is strenuous, the men in the top roles could stay there forever!
Commenting on this feels fraught, but I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that men don’t read literary fiction much anymore. If the types of stories being potentially being excluded are what I think they are (say, more Denis Johnson than Ben Lerner), those books do still come out, just in translation or on smaller presses. Recent-ish books like Julián Herbert’s Bring Me the Head of Quentin Tarantino, Mateo García Elizondo’s Last Date in El Zapotal, Michael Bible’s The Ancient Hours, Brian Allen Carr’s Bad Foundations, or Bud Smith’s Teenager should all scratch that itch. If men want more books like that to exist, then they should buy those books, get their friends to buy those books, write and talk about them, make them sell out their first print run. That’s the easiest way to open up the market: have the books sell well.
It feels like I’ve read a hundred essays from dudes on this topic, and so very few promoting or discussing or reviewing the books that actually exist. I think that’s a problem!
I don’t mind that! it’s good to promote good books. I’m working really hard to get my male friends reading again. Especially reading *new* books. Sure, they’re more likely to read books that they feel they can relate to at first, but I’ve never met a real reader who stops there. Eventually they’ll want experiences far beyond them. It’s just getting them to pick up that first book back
This article seems like it can’t decide whether it wants to be snarky like one of the cool kids or genuinely address a problem in a constructive fashion. The fact that in your sub head, you put “white male literary crisis” in scare quotes illustrates that. So you’re alternating between, “lol men ha ha there isn’t a crisis,” and, “OK man you have a problem but candidly you brought it on yourselves,” and thinking there might be a genuine issue.
It’s basic math really. If books are going to be “more diverse” on a percentage basis, then that has to be at the expense of the “less diverse” authors.
I don’t understand your comment. There *was* a crisis in publishing for many years at the expense of diverse authors, with more of the money and awards going to white men. Now things have balanced out and are fairer, if not perfect. I took pains in the essay to point out that genre fiction doesn’t have a white male publishing crisis, this is a “literary” crisis only. Yes, if publishing becomes fairer, fewer white men will be published in relative terms, but isn’t fairness good? The white millennial men who are successful in SFF right now don’t seem to object to their women/POC counterparts, they tend to promote their colleagues’ work and be respectful. The crisis in literary fiction appears to be of a different order—it’s not a “crisis” at all, it’s young men and mostly young white men refusing to write and insisting that they simply can’t and won’t be taken seriously. I think they’re bullshitting. I think if the crisis were real, we’d see it in SFF too.
I get it: men say they have a problem and you don’t believe them. It’s their fault because none of them are actually writing. Okayyyyyy. That’s kind of hard to respond to. Although I will point out that JCO disagrees with you.
But let me ask a hypothetical question. I’ve read, and I’m sure you have too, that at four-year liberal arts colleges, the split is 60% women, 40% men. Is that what you would define as “fairness”?
According to most research on the subject, many men are deliberately opting out of college for a number of reasons! I suggest you do some reading. I’m also curious what your answer is for why there is an apparent problem in literary fiction and none in SFF (or mystery or thriller fiction either). Why is there a difference? Men say they have a problem: okay, let’s accept that as true for the moment. Why is the problem specific to literary fiction alone?
“many men are deliberately opting out of college for a number of reasons!” Well there you go – nothing to see here! I’ll ignore your condescending “I suggest you do some reading.”
But let me ask you : on what do you base the claim that this problem is confined to literary fiction? You mentioned three guys. Do you have statistics? I’m genuinely asking.
By the way, I’m not denying that literature used to be a playground largely for white men, and indeed WASP men. I don’t think anybody’s denying that. For that matter, the Ivy leagues used to strictly limit their admission of Jews. I think there is generalized awareness of these past injustices.
You are continually evading the discussion so I’m going to stop lol, I named three particular guys as representative and prominent examples but if you actually read SFF you would probably be familiar with others like Joe Abercrombie, Joe Hill (and those are just the Joes). I’m telling you, condescendingly, to do the reading because you obviously don’t do the reading. Goodbye!
"Nobody gets paid much for writing anymore, especially now that it’s considered a woman’s field, in fact that’s how you know it’s a woman’s field" Someone finally said it!
While watching this debate unfold, I've noticed the ever-narrowing of the categories in which this problem supposedly exists; every time someone points to a gay man, a man of color, or a male fantasy writer who's been successful, there's an insistence that that man just doesn't "count" towards the problem. Possibly it's more of an issue in lit fic because that genre lends itself to exploring emotional experiences, which, we're told, men are just not as good at as women? Or maybe it's just that a generation of men has been told that writing about feelings is girly, and they held enough disdain for women to listen to what they were told.
I can't help but think that if all these thinkpiece writers were really serious about getting more straight white men to publish literary fiction, they'd try to get more men working in publishing. But that would mean that those men would have to work in a field composed of primarily women. Women would likely be their superiors and career mentors, people they'd have to respect, listen to, and collaborate with. They'd also be paid the going rate (well, probably more), which, though slightly better than it used to be, is as dismal as you'd expect for a woman-dominated field. But, surprise, many men don't seem willing to do those things. And, surprise, they're finding a way to blame women for it.
Yep and the very top roles in publishing are still dominated by men for the most part! Women do the majority of the grunt work and hold middle management roles, but far fewer of the chief positions.
I can't blame the men for not flocking to traditional publishing-- they want to live, and impoverishing themselves on the off chance they'll get to rule the remains of the henhouse is a poor bet, especially if they don't have preexisting literary connections. It's not like publishing is strenuous, the men in the top roles could stay there forever!
Commenting on this feels fraught, but I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that men don’t read literary fiction much anymore. If the types of stories being potentially being excluded are what I think they are (say, more Denis Johnson than Ben Lerner), those books do still come out, just in translation or on smaller presses. Recent-ish books like Julián Herbert’s Bring Me the Head of Quentin Tarantino, Mateo García Elizondo’s Last Date in El Zapotal, Michael Bible’s The Ancient Hours, Brian Allen Carr’s Bad Foundations, or Bud Smith’s Teenager should all scratch that itch. If men want more books like that to exist, then they should buy those books, get their friends to buy those books, write and talk about them, make them sell out their first print run. That’s the easiest way to open up the market: have the books sell well.
It feels like I’ve read a hundred essays from dudes on this topic, and so very few promoting or discussing or reviewing the books that actually exist. I think that’s a problem!
Well, they generally are happy to tell you that their fellow Substack Bros' books exist.
I don’t mind that! it’s good to promote good books. I’m working really hard to get my male friends reading again. Especially reading *new* books. Sure, they’re more likely to read books that they feel they can relate to at first, but I’ve never met a real reader who stops there. Eventually they’ll want experiences far beyond them. It’s just getting them to pick up that first book back
Sorry to read that about your husband’s job… Also hell I didn’t know that about Diaz so massive thanks. Great piece as usual.
This article seems like it can’t decide whether it wants to be snarky like one of the cool kids or genuinely address a problem in a constructive fashion. The fact that in your sub head, you put “white male literary crisis” in scare quotes illustrates that. So you’re alternating between, “lol men ha ha there isn’t a crisis,” and, “OK man you have a problem but candidly you brought it on yourselves,” and thinking there might be a genuine issue.
It’s basic math really. If books are going to be “more diverse” on a percentage basis, then that has to be at the expense of the “less diverse” authors.
I don’t understand your comment. There *was* a crisis in publishing for many years at the expense of diverse authors, with more of the money and awards going to white men. Now things have balanced out and are fairer, if not perfect. I took pains in the essay to point out that genre fiction doesn’t have a white male publishing crisis, this is a “literary” crisis only. Yes, if publishing becomes fairer, fewer white men will be published in relative terms, but isn’t fairness good? The white millennial men who are successful in SFF right now don’t seem to object to their women/POC counterparts, they tend to promote their colleagues’ work and be respectful. The crisis in literary fiction appears to be of a different order—it’s not a “crisis” at all, it’s young men and mostly young white men refusing to write and insisting that they simply can’t and won’t be taken seriously. I think they’re bullshitting. I think if the crisis were real, we’d see it in SFF too.
I get it: men say they have a problem and you don’t believe them. It’s their fault because none of them are actually writing. Okayyyyyy. That’s kind of hard to respond to. Although I will point out that JCO disagrees with you.
But let me ask a hypothetical question. I’ve read, and I’m sure you have too, that at four-year liberal arts colleges, the split is 60% women, 40% men. Is that what you would define as “fairness”?
According to most research on the subject, many men are deliberately opting out of college for a number of reasons! I suggest you do some reading. I’m also curious what your answer is for why there is an apparent problem in literary fiction and none in SFF (or mystery or thriller fiction either). Why is there a difference? Men say they have a problem: okay, let’s accept that as true for the moment. Why is the problem specific to literary fiction alone?
“many men are deliberately opting out of college for a number of reasons!” Well there you go – nothing to see here! I’ll ignore your condescending “I suggest you do some reading.”
But let me ask you : on what do you base the claim that this problem is confined to literary fiction? You mentioned three guys. Do you have statistics? I’m genuinely asking.
By the way, I’m not denying that literature used to be a playground largely for white men, and indeed WASP men. I don’t think anybody’s denying that. For that matter, the Ivy leagues used to strictly limit their admission of Jews. I think there is generalized awareness of these past injustices.
You are continually evading the discussion so I’m going to stop lol, I named three particular guys as representative and prominent examples but if you actually read SFF you would probably be familiar with others like Joe Abercrombie, Joe Hill (and those are just the Joes). I’m telling you, condescendingly, to do the reading because you obviously don’t do the reading. Goodbye!